Coming Up Tomorrow On The Dickenbock Report: National Letter Writing Day

December 7 is National Letter Writing Day, so that's what we'll be reporting on on The Dickenbock Report on XRAY FM. Musical report about letters - some that are letters - plus a Dickenbock Report Book Report &, if there's time, Dick Dickenbock answers your letters on air. (There won't be time for that.)

That's Sunday noon to 1pm on 91.1+107.1fm here in Portland & online everywhere at xray dot fm. We've very sorry, Dick Dickenbock is making us say this, it'll be a show you'll write home about. Again, apologies for that.

This Week In Self Help: November 29 + 30 & December 1 + 2

It was the first year of the pandemic when I took that picture above. A little stand-alone garage in my hood probably abandoned or otherwise unoccupied, covered in graffiti. It's gone now, condos stand in its place, but maybe those new builds are haunted by the ghosts of all that graffiti.

It was a pretty busy week for me. Here's what I did:

On Saturday November 29 I subbed for three hours on KBOO playing soul music. I was not calling it a sub for the show that's usually there, An Evening Of Afrotainment, as I am woefully unqualified to host that show. But it's in the timeslot, so you can listen to it on the KBOO website. & also on the Self Help Radio website if you want.

On Sunday November 30 I was on The Dickenbock Report on XRAY FM for National Computer Security Day. Being an uncreative sort, I just played a lot of songs about passwords. You can listen to it on the XRAY website. & also on the Self Help Radio website if you want.

On Monday November 1 very early in the morning I played an hour of music from 2025 which I hadn't gotten around to playing yet on KBOO. It was in a timeslot where there's currently no show scheduled, but you can listen to in on the Self Help Radio website. (KBOO doesn't archive shows that are unscheduled.)

On Tuesday November 2 there was a Self Help Radio show on KBOO about graffiti. You can listen to it on the KBOO website. & also on the Self Help Radio website if you want.

Also on Tuesday November 2 on Corporate Standardized Programming I played music by artists we lost in April of this year. You can listen to it on the KBOO website (after Self Help Radio). & also on the Self Help Radio website if you want.

Remember - you might need the username SHR & password selfhelp to listen.

Anyway, I hopefully won't be so busy this next week. I'm gonna go paint a train.

Self Help Radio 120225: Graffiti

Ooo, almost got caught last night! Self Help Radio tags all over Portland! You can graffiti the town with the power of the airwaves!

Graffiti was sung about & discussed, although I didn't get a chance to read dirty graffiti from the walls of Pompeii or - apparently! - from English churches in the 16th century. I miss discovering graffiti in strange bathrooms on my college campus. I remember being in an unfamiliar building & discovering this gem: No matter how beautiful she is, someone somewhere is sick of her shit.

As someone who was never beautiful & who has shit most everyone is sick of, I present the graffiti Self Help Radio episode. Listen at the KBOO website & at the Self Help Radio website. Remember you might need a username & password for the latter. Everything that happened on the show is below.

Work on your tag. Be careful. Stay out of trouble.

Self Help Radio Graffiti Show

"Graffiti" Benny Hill _The Best Of Benny Hill_

"Graffiti Night Fever" Ivor Biggun & The Red-Nosed Burglars _The Winker's Album (Misprint)_

"Teenage Graffiti" The Pink Spiders _Hot Pink_

introduction & definitions

"The Sound Of Graffiti" Jack Raymond & Haskell Barkin _The Handwriting On The Wall (The Sounds Of Graffiti)_

"Graffiti Crimes" Mi-Sex _Graffiti Crimes_

"Chinese Graffiti" Blue Peter _Up To You_

"Graffiti Love" Violet Strange _Stray_

"Graffiti Bridge" Prince _Graffiti Bridge_

our favorite librarian Carole shares with us books about graffiti

"Sex" Jack Raymond & Haskell Barkin _The Handwriting On The Wall (The Sounds Of Graffiti)_

"Graffiti Limbo" Michelle Shocked _Short Sharp Shocked_

"Graffiti" Throwing Muses _The Real Ramona_

"Graffiti Women" Suede _Sci-Fi Lullabies_

"Graffiti Worth Reading" The Mighty Mighty Bosstones _Pin Points & Gin Joints_

interview with Officer Little of the PPD Graffiti Division

"Whimsy" Jack Raymond & Haskell Barkin _The Handwriting On The Wall (The Sounds Of Graffiti)_

"Small Town Graffiti" Lispector _Small Town Graffiti_

"Wet Graffiti" Sacred Paws _Strike A Match_

"Soft Graffiti" Takako Minekawa _Fun9_

"Graffiti" Atmosphere _Mi Vida Local_

interview with graffiti artist "Jarvis"

"Underneaths" Jack Raymond & Haskell Barkin _The Handwriting On The Wall (The Sounds Of Graffiti)_

"Graffiti Paint" Field Medic _Songs From The Sunroom_

"Graffiti Street" Rayland Baxter _If I Were A Butterfly_

"Graffiti" Maximo Park _A Certain Trigger_

"Delicate Graffiti" Helen Ganya _Polish The Machine_

conclusion & goodbye

"Graffiti Part One" Stereo MC's _Deep Down & Dirty_

"Never Like Graffiti" Emak Bakia _Acuarela Songs_

Whither Graffiti?

When people think of graffiti, they think of the intricate work of some artists - often commissioned, as I believe the art in the image above is - but of course graffiti can just be writing - sometimes names, like tags, or sometimes rude sentences (or not rude, sorry to impose my judgment on them). I was thinking a while back about how in two of the three college stations at which I deejayed, the bathrooms were marked up. Just really, really marked up. Here's a snap of the one at KVRX from around 1995:

& from about twenty years later, something pithy that always made me laugh found in the WRFL bathroom:

In fact it was in a fit of nostalgia that I came across that WRFL pic a few weeks ago & that's what made me think about doing a show about graffiti.

As a side comment: I do wish I had documented those magnificent restrooms more completely. Neither exists any more. The building in which the original KVRX studios lived was demolished around 1999 I think, & the WRFL bathroom was destroyed when the UK Student Center was remodeled around 2015 or 2016. Too bad.

Songs & interviews about graffiti tonight on KBOO. Midnight to 2am. That's 90.7fm here in town & online everywhere at kboo dot fm. Now. I'd better start working on my tag!

Preface To Graffiti: So Much Graffiti

There was so much graffiti all over Portland during the pandemic. This especially happened to businesses that had closed or had closed up for the duration, & to houses that had been abandoned. It must've been a great time to go around painting on things. I remember one morning, when I was doing a show early on XRAY, driving on I-5 going north, I saw three guys just standing on the highway shoulder spray-painting a wall or a pillar or whatever. I don't even know if the police would've stopped at that point.

The city is much more active now & the graffiti level has dropped. There are still some rudimentary tags here & there but hardly any sentences written on the sides of walls as in the picture I took above, dated February 26, 2022. Nearly four years ago, wow. Hard to believe what we've lived through.

Or didn't live through, as the case may be. There are people I don't talk to because of the pandemic. Their inability to understand the deadliness of the virus - coupled with their incredibly stupid fear of vaccines - made me decide I didn't need those people in my life. It was a really dumb time & it continues to be very dumb.

You don't need me to tell you that, tho.

Coming Up Tomorrow On The Dickenbock Report: National Computer Security Day

(by Stephan Dybus)

November 30 is National Computer Security Day. Although Dick Dickenbock doesn't own a computer, & the use of his cell phone is tightly monitored, he does feel confident he can report about the best way to protect yourself in our dangerous cyber world. Probably something to do with passwords.

Find out Dick Dickenbock's passwords on XRAY FM tomorrow, Sunday, November 30, noon to 1pm. Listen in Portland at 91.1+107.1fm & online at xray dot fm. Spoiler alert! His password is "password."

This Week In Self Help: November 21 23 + 25

(I have no idear where I found this image originally, but it's here)

A busy week! How do I start? Way back a Friday ago.

Friday the 21st. The Songcircle on KBOO. New releases. Listen here at KBOO. Listen here at Self Help Radio.

Also Friday the 21st. Also on KBOO. I subbed Plugged In. I played lots of pretty electronica from this year. Listen here at KBOO. Listen here at Self Help Radio.

Sunday the 23rd. The Dickenbock Report on XRAY. It was Eat A Cranberry Day. Listen here at XRAY. Listen here at Self Help Radio.

Tuesday the 25th. Self Help Radio on KBOO. A birthday show for my wife with lots of songs about birthdays. Listen here at KBOO. Listen here at Self Help Radio.

Also Tuesday the 25th. Corporate Standardized Programming on KBOO. More new releases. Listen here at KBOO (after Self Help Radio). Listen here at Self Help Radio.

At Self Help Radio you might need: username SHR, password selfhelp.

Hopefully not such a busy week ahead. Happy holiday weekend!

Self Help Radio 112525: Magda's Birthday Show 2025

Here it is, the annual birthday show I make for my wife. She said "Thank you for making a birthday show for me" drowsily as she drifted off to sleep. Marriage saved for one more year!

About a third of the songs on the show were from 2025. That includes older songs on new releases, like the Red Sleeping Beauty singles collection & the John & Yoko box set. Most of the rest were songs I just came across this year. I have a folder - this is true - full of birthday songs that I don't really like all that much. I always think one year I'll release a deliberately sub-standard birthday show, so that's why I keep them. But I continue to find birthday songs I like so - not yet!

Have a birthday party & listen to the show either on the KBOO web page or on the Self Help Radio web page. If you choose the latter, you might need the username SHR & the password selfhelp. In any event, bring your own hats & cake. I ate all the cake.

Happy birthday!

Self Help Radio Birthday Show 2025

"Happy Birthday" Mocca _Funfair_

"Happy Happy Birthday" Bitter Cherry Jam _Road To The Vegetablets_

"Happy Birthday" Red Sleeping Beauty _Pop Songs_

introduction & explanation

"Happy Birthday" Black Country, New Road _Forever Howlong_

"A Happy Birthday Song" John Tabacco _You Get Old - You Get Everything_

"Timmy's Birthday" The Firesign Theatre _Dope Humor Of The Seventies_

"Happy Birthday Yoko Ono (Jam)" John & Yoko/Plastic Ono Band with Elephant's Memory & Special Guests _Power To The People_

"Archie Stephens' Birthday Party" Shrug _Fresh Fish_

interview with Magda's 7th grade boyfriend Chad

"Birthday" Joni _Avalanches_

"I Don't Know Why Double Birthday" Saintseneca _Highwallow & Supermoon Songs_

"Happy Birthday Old Folk" Walter Brennan _Old Rivers_

"My 8th Birthday" Big Top Heartbreak _Deadbeat Ballads_

"Is It Worth It (Happy Birthday)" Cate Le Bon _Michelangelo Dying_

interview with Wojciech & Agnieszka, who were in the Polish community with Magda

"Happy Birthday Late" Starlings _Korda Komp 4_

"Song For Molly Parden (Happy Birthday Darling)" Johanna Samuels _Bystander_

"White Lady With A Birthday Party" Nicole Byer _Big Beautiful Weirdo_

"Happy Birthday" Tommy Crimes _Album_

"Picture Of The Birthday" Crawl Babies _Send My Badge! - Bluebadge Compilation Vol. 1_

interview with Oliver, who had been a grad student with Magda

"Bad Birthday Bash" The Vandals _When In Rome Do As The Vandals_

"Birthday" Snuff Redux _Birthday_

"Happy Birthday To A Bookworm" Ernie Kovacs _The Ernie Kovacs Album_

"Birthday" Warren Teagarden _Haiku Islands Volume Two_

"One More Trip Around The Sun" Cari Cari _One More Trip Around The Sun_

conclusion & goodbye

"Happy Birthday" Fats & His Cats _Die Singles 1962-1968_

"Birthday Bash" The Hants _Bible Belt Warbling_

"Pretend Birthday" Automatic Children _New Is Beautiful_

"Birthday Dream" Human Culture _Human Culture_

Whither Magda's Birthday Show 2025?

(image from here)

Nearly every year that Self Help Radio has been in existence - that's like 23 years now - I have dedicated a show to the love of my life - first when she was just my girlfriend, now as my wife - around the time of her birthday. Do I play songs that make me think about her? Do I share songs that we both love equally? Nope! I play songs about birthdays. She's still charmed by it tho.

What makes the show difficult for me is that I don't repeat recordings. Which is to say, I may play covers of famous birthday songs, but once I've played that recording of the song, I don't repeat it. So I need to find new birthday songs - either ones that have been released in the last twelve months or ones I have otherwise missed - on every birthday show. & that's a challenge!

You can find out how I do tonight on KBOO - 90.7fm in Portland, kboo dot fm everywhere - from midnight to 2am. Heck, it might even be your birthday!

Preface To Magda's Birthday Show 2025: I Got You A Card

Hope you like it.

Coming Up Tomorrow On The Dickenbock Report: Eat A Cranberry Day

(image from here)

November 23 is Eat A Cranberry Day. We've stocked up on cranberries in all manners of food - sauce, juice, pie, & more - & Dick Dickenbock demands we eat cranberries while we report on the fruit tomorrow.

That's Sunday, from noon to 1pm, on 91.1+107.1fm in Portland, xray dot fm everywhere. Why wait for Thanksgiving?

This Week In Self Help: November 16 + 18

Another week in which I only did the radio shows I'm supposed to do. Here's how that went:

The Dickenbock Report on XRAY FM reported on National Button Day.

Listen to that show: on the XRAY web page | on the Self Help Radio web page.

Self Help Radio on KBOO FM had a show about freedom.
(All the songs were in fact titled "Freedom.")

Listen to that show: on the KBOO web page | on the Self Help Radio web page.

Corporate Standardized Programming on KBOO FM continued the freedom theme.

Listen to that show: on the KBOO web page (after Self Help Radio) | on the Self Help Radio web page.

Remember! You might need on the Self Help Radio web page
username: SHR password: selfhelp

This next week tho I'm going to be a little more busy I think.

Self Help Radio 111825: Freedom

A show about freedom. With all the songs called "Freedom." There were lots of songs called "Freedom." They spilled into the third hour, which is a show called Corporate Standardized Programming. But might as well be the third hour of Self Help Radio.

Also my silly guests tell me their favorite freedoms. It gets pretty ridiculous.

& when you're free, if ever you're free, you can listen for free. It's at the KBOO web site & at the Self Help Radio website. At the latter you may need to use the username SHR & pass the password selfhelp. All the songs are called "Freedom" but everything that happens on the show is below.

Tho I feel a little free dumb right now.

Self Help Radio Freedom Show

"Freedom" The Golden Gate Quartet _Freedom: The Golden Gate Quartet & Josh White At The Library Of Congress_

"Freedom" Tommy Blake _Koolit (The Sun Years, Plus)_

"Freedom" Charles Mingus _Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus_

introduction & definitions

"Freedom" The New Christy Minstrels _Chim Chim Cher-ee_

"Freedom" The Motions _Electric Baby_

"Freedom" Memphis Slim _The Legacy Of The Blues Vol. 7_

"Freedom" Richie Havens _Woodstock - Music From The Original Soundtrack & More_

interview with Blake who tells us his favorite freedom

"Freedom" Six Feet Under _In Retrospect 1969-70_

"Freedom" Sue & Sunny _Freedom_

"Freedom" Rocky Cabbage _Rainbow Rocking Chair (The Definitive Collection 1969-1971)_

"Freedom" Ellison _Ellison_

"Freedom" The Isley Brothers _The Essential Isley Brothers_

interview with Tony who tells us his favorite freedom

"Freedom" Art Bears _The World As It Is Today_

"Freedom" The Garlands _The Garlands EP_

"Freedom" The Housemartins _London 0 Hull 4_

"Freedom" Alan Vega/Alex Chilton/Ben Vaughn _Cubist Blues_

"Freedom" Quintron _Too Thirsty 4 Love_

interview with Didi & Vic who tell us their favorite freedom

"Freedom" Accra Quartet _Travelers_

"Freedom" David Walters, Vincent Segal, Ballaké Sissoko, & Roger Raspail _Nocturne_

"Freedom" Ibibio Sound Machine _Electricity_

"Freedom" Sampa The Great _The Return_

interview with Eric who tells us his favorite freedom
+ conclusion & goodbye

"Freedom" Ty Segall _Ty Segall_

"Freedom" Curtis Harding _Soul Power_ 

"Freedom" Chaka Khan _Moscow On The Hudson Original Motion Picture Soundtrack_

Whither Freedom?

(image from here)

Apologies for the goofy stock photo. It's public domain. In all the pictures I've taken over the last few years not a single one had the title "freedom." So there you go.

Last week on the show I joked, when announcing this theme, that I thought it might be a good idea to do a show about freedom while we still had some of it in this country. For a lot of my fellow residents, freedom is a precious commodity. I'm not sure that was what was in my mind when I first thought of the theme, but golly it seems a good reason to do the show at this point.

Listen to a show about freedom tonight, midnight to 3am, on 90.7fm in town, kboo dot fm everywhere.

It's very strange to be aware that I now have less freedoms than when I was born, & even stranger to know there are people in this country - including members of my family - that aren't even aware of that.

Preface To Freedom: Why Isn't Your Show More Political

(image found here)

Something I am sometimes asked - more in the past, really, than in recent times - is "Why isn't your show more political?" It's a question that puzzles me. I suppose there are people on the right who listen to noncommercial radio, noncommercial music, but the right wingers in my family have never paid any attention to the music I like & have at their most charitable called it "weird." If it hasn't appeared on commercial radio, they wouldn't have heard it, let alone approved of it. & frankly I have very rarely met conservatives who volunteer or do radio shows at the stations I am at - & usually those do country shows.

Mostly I've hoped that people would think, oh he's on a left-leaning radio station, he must also feel that way, & that's certainly true, although I have disagreed with my stations in the past. But the company I keep should surely be a clue - yes, I might have silly improvised interviews about pigeons, but that doesn't mean I am not antifa.

Ultimately I end up saying something like, "I personally think noncommercial radio is an incredibly revolutionary thing." & I believe it. I volunteer at the stations at which I deejay, I ask for listener support on the air, I wear clothing that promotes them, & I support them financially. Because it may seem like oddballs in a little room playing their favorite music or sharing their opinions, but it's so dramatically unlike the current media landscape that we have ventured as far out as the Dadaists did at this point.

Noncommercial radio is my passion & I have given so much of the last thirty years of my life to it, & will continue to do so. That means every show on a station like KBOO or XRAY or Freeform Portland is inherently political. It's about freedom of expression. It's about challenging the status quo. It's David versus a Goliath as tall as a tower.

So perhaps if ever I am asked the question, "Why isn't your show more political?" I should just answer, "Honestly, I don't think it could get any more political!"

Coming Up Tomorrow On The Dickenbock Report: National Button Day

(image found here)

National Button Day is November 16. Because that is the day that most resembles a button. One assumes. People have been celebrating National Button Day for so long that its origins have disappeared into the mists of time. When you go to your annual National Button Day gathering, you don't ask such questions, you just have a good time. But maybe you'd like to know more about National Button Day? Then you're lucky that's what we're focusing on on The Dickenbock Report tomorrow!

Yes, Sunday. That's November 16. From noon to 1pm. On 91.1+107.1fm in Portland. xray dot fm everywhere. Prepare your buttons accordingly.

This Week In Self Help: November 9 + 11

Another week in which I kept my hands to myself & just made the shows I'm supposed to make.

The Dickenbock Report on XRAY on November 9 was about tongue twisters because it was International Tongue Twister Day. I had fun putting it together but got no feed about it. Seems I was the only one who enjoyed it. Let that be your warning if you wanna listen! It's at XRAY FM & also at the SHR web page.

Self Help Radio on KBOO on November 11 had the odd theme "surface" but I got some nice texts about it even tho it was on late at night. That was nice. I had fun putting it together too. It's at KBOO FM & also at the SHR web page.

Corporate Standardized Programming also on KBOO also on November 11 was just a buncha new releases which I like to play because I listen to all kindsa new stuff all the time. It's at KBOO FM (after Self Help Radio) & also on its own at the SHR web page.

If asked, the username is SHR & the password is selfhelp.

Is that all? Yes, that's all.

Self Help Radio 111125: Surface

Let it be known I tried to get deep about the subject of "surface." I tried to use all meanings of the word. I sought out silly but appropriate interviewees. I kept my hands on the surface of the console at all times in case anything went wrong. I did my best, damn it! But somehow it still feels a little shallow.

Nevertheless here's the show! It's over on the KBOO website but also on the Self Help Radio website. On the latter use the username SHR & password selfhelp to access. Most everything that happens on the show is listed below.

Time to leave the surface of the show!

Self Help Radio Surface Show

"Surface" Big Bliss _At Middle Distance_

"Surface" Burnt Palms _The Girl You Knew_

"The Surface" The Dodos _Grizzly Peak_

introduction & definitions

"Surface World" The Jades _Scream Loud!!! The Fenton Story_

"On The Surface" Pere Ubu _Dub Housing_

"Walking On The Surface Of The Moon" Wreckless Eric _The Wonderful World Of Wreckless Eric_

"Look Beneath The Surface" Maggie Nicols _Miniatures (A Sequence Of Fifty-One Tiny Masterpieces Edited By Morgan-Fisher)_

"Under The Surface" Bettie Serveert _Palomine_

interview with Col. Brock Eiger, who wants to land on the surface of the sun

"Scratch The Surface" Jasmine Minks _Scratch The Surface_

"From The Surface" Mecca Normal _Jarred Up_

"Surface Of Pluto" Human Eye _4: Into Unknown_

"Surface Envy" Sleater-Kinney _No Cities To Love_

"On The Surface" Bettye LaVette _I've Got My Own Hell To Raise_

interview with Jenny & Joey Gillespie, who grew up under the surface of the Earth

"Up To The Surface" Cloud Nothings _Life Without Sound_

"Perfect On The Surface" Emily Haines & The Soft Skeleton _Choir Of The Mind_

"Breaking The Surface" Ane Brun _How Beauty Holds The Hand Of Sorrow_

"In The Surface Noise" Archers Of Loaf _Reason In Decline_

"Scratch The Surface" Sloan _Steady_

interview with Surface Level Living promoter Scott

"Under The Surface" Linda From Work _The Night Is Short_

"I Just Surfaced" The Macks _The Macks Are A Knife_

"Skimming The Surface" Fotoform _Grief Is A Garden (Forever In Bloom)_

"Surface Talk" Gretta Seabird _Cycling EP_

"On The Surface" Pale Blue Eyes _New Place_

conclusion & goodbye

"Surfacer" 14 Iced Bears _14 Iced Bears_

"Surface Operations" Grace Scheele _Landings_

"Scratching The Surface" Rabbit's Eye _The Damage Was Terrific_

Whither Surface?

In general, I can think of three main reasons one might pick a theme for a theme-based radio show. Off the top of my head, those are:

1) It's a holiday or famous day - like Halloween or a famous artist's birthday.
2) It's a day of special importance to the programmer - an anniversary perhaps.
3) It's arbitrary - for example, in the case of this particular theme-based radio show, the reason is often because of coincidence of repetition - I might hear many different songs in a short time that suggest the theme.

The reason for the theme of this week's Self Help Radio - which is "surface" - is the unofficial fourth way (which might seem to coincide with reason number 3):

4) For the life of me I can't remember why I picked that theme.

Here's what I know:

Sometime this year I thought "surface" would be a good theme for a show. Probably late at night. Perhaps whiskey was involved. I created a folder on my computer & put a file in it with some ideas. Later on it seemed to me I was ready to make that show - I had enough songs, I had some silly ideas for interviews, etc. & I put it on the schedule.

It never occurred to me to write down why that was the theme. & it is "surface." Not "surfaces." The word "surface."

& that's all I can say about that. But I will add the show airs tonight from midnight to 2am on 90.7fm here in Portland & online everywhere at kboo dot fm. I know, on the surface it doesn't seem like a good theme. But maybe there's something below the surface?

Preface To Surface: You Can Drive Forever

Something I might have mentioned before - I like taking pictures. I got my hands on a digital camera sometime in 2014 or so & I have been snapping shots when the spirit takes me since then.

But why not seek out opportunities to take pictures? I have done it a few times. The image above - from 2017 - is one of those times. On an afternoon with nothing to do, I went on a drive & took some pictures.

Oh how I hesitate to say that I keep a journal because it's really just an accounting of my day but I checked back to see what I might have been doing when I took this picture - it was on December 3, 2017 - & here's what I think was happening:

We bought some dog treats for our beagles which we discovered were too large for them. We offered to donate them to an animal rescue group. I drove there & had to wander through what I described then as a "shabby office park" to give them away. That all went successfully - I have the strangest feeling I returned there years later but will forgo that at the moment & just say I decided to take the long way home in order to take some pictures. Did I? I wrote this: "took a few but not many."

Not the makings of a bona fide photographer to be sure!

The surface of the road is obvious here tho. & truly there are roads like this everywhere. & even if they don't go on forever, they might as well - they certainly feel like they do.